Challege: Catch Scorpius Lying

[SueDonym]

I have grown tired of hearing that Scorpius persistently lies to John and the Moyans when I have never found an instance where he does so. Lots of people think he will *eventually* be caught out in a lie, but that is mere speculation. From what we've seen, Scorpius is a scruptuously honest fellow, particularly in all his dealings with the Moyans.

In fact, other than lying to the Scarran Emperor about being a double (triple?) agent, I can't remember him lying at all.

Since it comes up a lot, I'm offering a challenge.

Catch him if you can.

[Harveylives]

Hidden Memory **spoilers**



















He and Crais tell John that the moya crew have been captured.

[ScorpSik]

Rock on SueDonym!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YAY!!!!
Scorpy + Sikozu - most honest Moyans!:D :whip:

[zelbinion]

as posted in another thread:
Did he really lie to the scarren emperor. Afterall don't you think Staleek knows who his spies are?

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by Harveylives
Hidden Memory **spoilers**He and Crais tell John that the moya crew have been captured.

However it was under Crais's recommendation -- and if you think about it, Scorpy didn't say it, Crais did -- try again.

Scorpy has never lied to John -- however he has lied to Rygel. Ever see Family Ties?

[CrystalMoon]

When Scorpius put a chip in John's head and never told him about it. It's a lie of omission. When Scorpius then told John that he had removed Harvey when he hadn't done so.

And just a question. But what's the big deal about whether or not Scorpius has ever lied? Just because he told the truth doesn't make his actions any better? Sure, he told John he was going to torture him and then he did. Yay, he was truthful. So what?

[NebariNookiee]

Here’s what I’m confused about – everyone’s making a big deal of this and yet it’s totally irrelevant. Scorpy was never obligated to tell Crichton about the chip in his head – for the simple reason that if he had, John would attempt to have it removed. But you need to remember that John should never have been on the Gammik Base to begin with – thereby Scorpius perceives Crichton as an enemy – and who ever said you had to tell your enemies the truth?

And Scorpius did remove Harvey – or at least shut him up – How could you remove something like Harvey? Scorpius did fulfill his end of the bargain.

But Harvey came back so Scorpy lied, right? Wrong – John lied. He betrayed Scorpy, which triggered Harvey’s return in order to make sure John “did the right thing.”

To put it to rest – Scorpy has never flat-out lied to John, but he has never been obligated to tell the truth either.

[ctheokas]

This is probably the most frustrating discussion in all of Farscape: Is Scorpius a liar, or has he ever lied to John?

In reality, we don't know, because we haven't seen the end of the series.

However, I have to agree with CrystalMoon. Just because he doesn't lie doesn't make him a "good" person.

What makes Scorpy such a great character (according to SFX magazine, he ranked higher than Darth Vader and Han Solo in terms of top SF characters) is the fact that we're not entirely sure he's evil. He does villainous things for the good of the galaxy.

He tortures, orders mass murder, orders pilots to their certain death, and so on, just so he can get information that will allow him to save the galaxy.

Also, if it's true that he's ultimately a spy for the Scarrans, wouldn't that make everything he has said and done so far suspect?

[CosmicTheorist]

To count as lying, does it have to be something Scorpius says on screen? And does it have to be with Moya's crew?

If these are not restrictions, then Scorpius has lied to Rygel, Rona, Grunschlik, and Crais. Every person who is NOT John and who has made a deal with Scorpius to deliver John to Scorpius, was lied to by Scorpius. Rygel found out from Crais during Family Ties that he was scheduled for execution; Rygel had made a deal for money and transportation back to Hyneria in exchange for helping Scorpius capture John and Scorpius agreed to this deal. Scorpius agreement to that deal with Rygel was a lie.

Scorpius made a deal with Rona in the Princess Trilogy; in exchange for money, Rona would help him capture John. After making the deal with Rona, Scorpius arranged to have her killed. Making a deal with someone you are planning to murder as if you had no such intentions IS a LIE.

Scorpius agreed to pay Grunschlik for information on WHEN John arrived at the frozen planet in Die Me Dichotomy. Scorpius didn't even bother to pay him; once Scorpius had the chip he started threatening to kill Grunschlik for no longer having a purpose. Scorpius's deal with Grunschlik was a lie.

Crais made a deal with Scorpius in Into The Lion's Den; Crais told Scorpius about John's plan to destroy the command carrier in exchange for reinstatement as the PK in charge of Talyn's revival. Once Scorpius learned of the plot, he posted guards around Talyn with orders to shoot Crais if he attempted to enter Talyn. Scorpius's deal with Crais was a lie.

Scorpius believes that HIS ends justify his means. His ends justified in his mind torturing Stark for 2 cycles. Scorpius felt justified torturing John long after he knew John was NOT a spy because he wanted the wormhole knowledge the Ancients implanted in John's mind. Scorpius has demonstrated that he will do whatever he believes is necessary to achieve his ends. Surely you are not trying to argue that he would refuse to tell lies, if they would serve his purposes.

I think there may be a little confusion between the issue of LIES Scorpius may or may not have told the Moyans, and the fact that they just don't trust Scorpius. Between the Aurora chair and the neural chip, there is more then enough reason for Moya's crew to distrust Scorpius. Victims are NEVER obligated to trust their torturers, even if those torturers always tell the truth.

;)

[ctheokas]

Way to go CosmicTheorist! Plus, a shout out to Arlington, VA.

[jfranka]

Scorpius believes that HIS ends justify his means. His ends justified in his mind torturing Stark for 2 cycles. Scorpius felt justified torturing John long after he knew John was NOT a spy because he wanted the wormhole knowledge the Ancients implanted in John's mind. Scorpius has demonstrated that he will do whatever he believes is necessary to achieve his ends. Surely you are not trying to argue that he would refuse to tell lies, if they would serve his purposes.

Beautifully put, CT. And if I may expand on that a little more...

I've always felt Scorpy was could be trusted by John in the fourth season, even though John had no reason to do so.

See, Scorpy lies to or betrays people he feels are worthless or inferior.

John has value. Wormhole tech but there is something a little more. John's resourcefulness and his ability to see the "big picture."

Scorp's big picture is the Scarrens. They can take over "half this galaxy" and desimate the PK's and anyone else in their way.

First, John is valuable, so Scorpy does not lie to him. He uses him, tricks him (the chip, specifically,) but does not out-and-out lie to him. Then he sees that John can see a "big picture" like he does. In all of the Farscape universe there are only four people
who see the "big picture" involving the Scarrens:

1. Ancients - Scorpy knows very little about them, if at all, so they are not accessable, since there is John around.

2. Grayza - but she is going about dealing with the Scarrens the wrong way.

3. Scorpy.

4. John.

Because John told Scorpy that he saw the dangers of what the Scarrens can do, (in "The Lion's Den" episodes,) Scorpy to starts to trust him a little more.

[chri-baby]

Here is my take on it:
He lied to John in "liars, guns and money" when he told him that the removal of the chip would kill him.
Scorpy lied to John and Aeryn when he told them he wated asylum on Moya.
he lied to them again when he told them he was there to safe guard john crichton when really he was only there to find a way to manipulate John into destroying the Scarrans.
He lied to John when he told him that he'd permenantly removed Harvey form his brain.
NOW this is not a lie but it is a betrayal; Scorpy knew that Grayza was going to be on the dead leviathon because Braka is his spie. he deliberately sent the girls there without the support of John hoping for complications that would force a show-down or that would force John into either releasing his wormhole knowledge or using it himself against the scarrans.

[Scaper_S]

I'd like to add something about Scorp lying / altering his viewpoint:

LG&M 3 John "Hey Scorpy. Why don't you cut me down, isn't torture time over?"

Scorpius "I don't torture people John, you misunderstand me"

forward to: John talking to Scorpius & Harvey about the Crystherium in WSS 3 and Stark knowing it's location -

John "Is that why you were torturing him when I met you?"
Scorp "That's right"


This change of view by Scorpius always bothers me, even though it's not that big of a lie compared with some already mentioned. It did reinforce to me that there was no way Scorpy could be trusted and that John would be betrayed by him yet again. Why was Scorpius so clear that he didn't torture people (LG&M) but change his mind in later (WSS)?

[MournsZhaan]

Originally posted by Scaper_S
I'd like to add something about Scorp lying / altering his viewpoint:

LG&M 3 John "Hey Scorpy. Why don't you cut me down, isn't torture time over?"

Scorpius "I don't torture people John, you misunderstand me"

forward to: John talking to Scorpius & Harvey about the Crystherium in WSS 3 and Stark knowing it's location -

John "Is that why you were torturing him when I met you?"
Scorp "That's right"


This change of view by Scorpius always bothers me, even though it's not that big of a lie compared with some already mentioned. It did reinforce to me that there was no way Scorpy could be trusted and that John would be betrayed by him yet again. Why was Scorpius so clear that he didn't torture people (LG&M) but change his mind in later (WSS)?

Possibly because Scorpius was answering John's question about Stark within a particular context. That is, Scorpius didn't want to quibble with John about words but simply answer John's question. The torture of the aurora chair is only incidental to its function. The aurora chair, itself, was not designed as a torture device; it was designed as an interrogation device.

Or, more likely IMO, the writers just screwed up! ;)

Chris

[Darth Buddha]

EXCELLENT!

And it was extracting information from a presumed Scarren spy, on top of that!

Not that I'm trying to white-wash leather boy.

[grapeshot]

Well, let me put it this way: would YOU trust him??

I sure wouldn't. He may or may not outright lie to you, but this is a dude who ALWAYS has hidden agendas. And I mean DEEPLY hidden agendas. MULTIPLE hidden agendas. I never turn my back on people like that.

[Ouroboros]

From Hidden Memory

(Crais beats Stark back. Stark whimpers. Scorpius enters.)

SCORPIUS: Have you finished?

CRAIS: Yes.

SCORPIUS: You see, Crichton...this is what I'm trying to keep you from.

CRICHTON: Yeah, Scorpy...you're all heart.

(PK guards pick Crichton up.)

SCORPIUS: You show me everything that's in your brain, and I won't torture you anymore.

CRICHTON: I've shown you everything.


From LGM part 3



John "Hey Scorpy. Why don't you cut me down, isn't torture time over?"

Scorpius "I don't torture people John, you misunderstand me"

Oopsie, looks like I win.:D

[SueDonym]

I'm gratified by the response here.

Although I understand that it can be a frustrating discussion, it doesn't seem to have become so, which is nice as I didn't want it to.

In response to CrystalMoon and ctheokas I also understood from the get-go that lack of falsehood does not mean "goodness". It can be just as easy to accomplish 'bad' objectives by telling the truth. However, honesty is generally acknowledged as the best policy, and is a known virtue. The fact that he never or rarely lies doesn't have to affect how you view the character or his goals, but it should affect how you argue about them.

Plus, I was genuinely curious. I don't claim to know everything there is to know about the eps. Is there an incident where Scorpius lies?

Taking the cases one by one:

The new and improved NebariNookie pretty much takes care of the Hidden Memory lie, which seems to have come from Crais, although if he stood around and let someone else lie he might bear partial responsibility. Still, it wasn't Scorpius who lied.

NebariNookie also handily handles the removal of Harvey. I think it is questionable whether or not the 'echo' of Harvey *can* be removed, so I'm willing to allow that Scorpius tried, and that Harvey's resurrection came from John's own falsehood. These are nice point to bring up, however. And nicely done NebariNookie. :cool:

I do think we'd have to go to cannon (what happens on screen) to get actual proof of lying, CrystalMoon. However, let's allow for your argument about his failure to fulfill bargains with who were supposed to deliver John to Scorpius, because it's interesting and a good point. My thoughts on this are that he is not obligated to fufill bargains with people who fail to deliver the goods. None of those you listed delivered Crichton to him. Therefore, they failed to fufill their part of the bargain, removing him from the obligation to fulfill his. That said, he still hands Jothee over when Crichton goes of his own accord, which he didn't have to do.

I'm uncertain of the case of FAMILY TIES, as I don't have access to the tapes, but here we have another incident of Crais reporting something that Scorpius supposedly has done. Crais has lied before. Couldn't he be lying now? Please feel free to get into Family Ties a bit more, as now I'm really curious.

I'm uncertain about Rona too. If I recall Scorpius says see that she gets something extra. It could easily be read that he planned to have her killed, or that he actually planned to give her something extra (either would account for Braca's uncertain then knowing look in his reaction shot) but she is blown up before anything that would finalize that could happen, if I recall. So again, there's a little POV here and a lot of uncertainty. Enough room to give Scorpius credit, I think. Let me know if I've missed something.

ITLD is a good choice Cosmic Theorist. However, Crais was certainly lying about his intentions to Scorpius, and says so to the others. I'd say that a lie to a liar is still a lie and therefore a bit problematic, but others might differ.

A far more valuable possibility however, is that Scorpius' deal with Crais *was* true, and the guards posted to ensure that Crais did not take over Talyn and try to escape or do what he eventually did. The PK were interested in Talyn and still doing research on him. Also, please note that Crais *was* allowed on Tayln, but only with the main PK scientist in charge of examining him. So it wasn't just shoot Crais on sight. It was shoot Crais if he tries to abuse his side of the bargain. I also thought when I first watched it, that perhaps those particular PK in charge of guarding the ship were giving Crais attitude (as the disgraced former-captain) and that Scorpius' order had not come through. I think it can be argued that it is equally likely that Scorpius was keeping his bargain here.

I would also like to point out that the purpose of this thread was to catch Scorpius in a lie, not to say whether or not the Moyans should trust him. I am willing to engage in discussion with you on this in another thread if you like. Perhaps one of your own devising, if the issue is of interest to you? (No sarcasm intended here.)

jfranka: I'm wondering if you would list where Scorpius lies or betrays people he thinks of as inferior or worthless. And while it is a bit OT, I think your reasoning as to why Scorpius would start to trust John a bit more is interesting. Quite possible.

Cri-baby: It is quite possible that Scorpius did think the removal of the chip would kill John. He's not a doctor and it was well imbedded. Even the diagnostician said there was a good chance that it would. Terrible odds, I think he was given for survival. However, JC was willing to risk it, and in doing so received some brain damage and memory loss. Removal of the chip was far from without risk and possibly deadly. Not a lie.

I don't see where you get the idea that Scorpius did not want asylum on Moya. He wanted to protect John (if only for his wormhole knowlege, yes possibly). Grayza had just tortured him. The Scarrans want him dead. The PK aren't happy with him. Of course he wanted asylum. Oh, missed the there to get JC to kill the Scarrans. I would say he was there to get JC to see that the Scarrans were a threat and that the best course was to help him defeat them, but I would hesitate to say that this was a lie as in either case it still means that he wanted asylum. Please not that Scorpius actual is scrupulous enough to add "...amongst other things" afterwards.

As to Harvey, I think Scorpius did the best he could there. He was surprised that the 'echo' remained. He certainly managed to silence him. See NebariNookie's post for further details.

I don't think that Scorpius was in direct contact with Braca in your last example, so I think you might be reaching when you say that he formed this elaborate plan all to force some unknown show-down. "Hoped for complications" of a nebulous nature don't sound like him. Scorpius is nothing if not a plan down to the last detail man. The sheer nebulous uncertainty involved in this, plus the endangerment of the two women (one of whom it is likely he knew was pregnant) seems out of character for him. (No, I'm not saying he wouldn't hurt a female if it was necessary, but that we've seen several instances where he was extremely 'gallant' to women, and then there is always his mother to take into account.) Plus, the dead Leviathan wasn't his idea. He would only be able to coordinate this with Braca, assuming that they were in constant contact, if it were his idea. On the PK side it was Grayza's bright idea to meet there.

As DarthBuddha says, those are excellent points MournsZhaan.
So no, Ouroboros, referencing MZ's argument (which applies equally to your statements), you don't get a prize.

I think your post actually makes clear, O. that Scorpius is saying that he's trying to protect JC from the rough treatment Crais is giving Stark but that he knows (or acknowledges here) that John considers this torture and not mercy. Latter, I think he means what he says when he claims that he does not torture people, simply because it is likely that he does not view the chair as true torture but extracting information. I think he's a bit misguided there, but that's just me.

So yes, grapeshot, I *would* trust Scorpius.
:aok:

[Scaper_S]

Originally posted by MournsZhaan
Possibly because Scorpius was answering John's question about Stark within a particular context. That is, Scorpius didn't want to quibble with John about words but simply answer John's question. The torture of the aurora chair is only incidental to its function. The aurora chair, itself, was not designed as a torture device; it was designed as an interrogation device.



Chris




So, torture as a bi-product. Nice.

but, Scorpy is a liar about not torturing people - see above from Ouroboros.

[CosmicTheorist]

In the first part of ITLD, Crais was allowed on board Talyn in the company of the Leviathan expert. In the beginning of part 2, Crais is prevented from boarding Talyn by the guard who says he is following Scorpius orders. At this point Crais makes his "deal" with Scorpius, in exchange for being put in charge of Talyn's resurrection, Crais promises to give Scorpius important information, ie Crichton never intended helping Scorpius and is planning to blow up the command carrier. Crais is telling Scorpius to truth here; he has kept his part of the deal. Afterward, when Crais attempts to board Talyn, the guard tells Crais that his orders have been changed by Scorpius himself. The guard's orders are now to shoot to kill if Crais attempts to board Talyn. Scorpius has failed to keep his part of the bargain; how can Crais be in charge of Talyn's resurrection if he is to be killed the first time he tries to board Talyn? Scorpius lied to Crais.

. . . he is not obligated to fufill bargains with people who fail to deliver the goods. None of those you listed delivered Crichton to him

Rygel did fail to deliver Crichton to Scorpius. However, both Rona and Grunschlik did deliver the goods. John was captured in the Princess Trilogy and Die Me Dichotomy. He was subsequently able to escape, but that does not negate his capture. Rona lured John into a trap where he was taken prisoner by Braca; Scorpius talks to Crichton after his capture. It is at this point that Scorpius tells Braca to give Rona something extra; this is the ambivalent statement you mentioned. However, this is not the scene that demonstrates Scorpius' intent to have Rona killed. That scene occured earlier, when Rona met with Scorpius personally. Scorpius pays Rona one quarter of the fee she will receive once Crichton is captured. After Rona leaves, Scorpius tells his nurse to tell Braca, "No witnesses left behind." Scorpius has ordered Braca to kill Rona. Scorpius' deal with Rona is a lie.

You overlooked Grunschlik in your reply, but his is the most blatant case of Scorpius lying. Grunschlik informs Scorpius when John arrives at Tocot's facility to have the chip removed. Grunschlik says that Scorpius agreed to pay him for this information and Scorpius does not contradict this statement. Scorpius does not pay Grunschlik anything, threatens to kill him for no longer serving a purpose, and then uses one of his devices to seize control of Grunschlik's body. Scorpius has failed to keep his bargain with Grunschlik; he lied to Grunschlik.

In Family Ties, Crais shows Rygel his death certificate and tells Rygel that Scorpius has ordered his execution as soon as Crichton is captured. Crais has lied prior to this scene; it is possible that he could be lying. However, Rygel is not a trusting soul and Rygel believes Crais. I believe it was the writer's intent that we the viewers follow Rygel's lead and believe Crais on this point, that Scorpius lied to Rygel.

;)

[SueDonym]

Oh! Now I remember what was bugging me about the Crais thing. Thanks for clarifying what happened there, CosmicTheorist as the action does seem odd. NOT, however, if you remember that Scorpius is a walking lie detector who was totally convinced that JC was telling the truth, because Harvey was helping John lie to Scorpius.

Therefore, when Crais comes trouncing in denouncing John's plan to betray Scorpius, and Scorpius is faced with deciding who was lying there, he would choose Crais. Crais wants something. Crais has lied repeatedly in the past and it's clear by their every interaction that Scorpius doesn't think much of him.

If Scorpius believes that Crais is lying about John's compliance, then of course he's going to bar him from any participation in Talyn's revival. He tried to 'lie' to Scorpius, or at least Scorpius think so, and treated Crais accordingly. Worse, Crais tried to drive a wedge in Scorpius' tentative relationship with John - now under Scorpy's protection - which would have frelled with all that WH knowledge he was getting which then would have frelled with his plans to save the Sebacceans/stop the Scarrans. How dare he the traitorous scum?! Moreover it must have seemed really weird to Scorpius as Crais' energy signature must have looked like he was telling the truth (if Scorpius even has enough experience with Crais to be able to tell that - arguably he would have with John). Since Crais looks like he's trying to do an end run around Scorpius, revoking his former promise makes sense. Again the whole not being obligated to fulfill contracts with those who don't deliver thing.

Not a lie on Scorpius' part, just part of being tricked by John and company. A play on his trust. ;)

Even thought they can be argued, Rona and Grunschlik are the better cases for abuse of contract, I think.

"No witnesses left behind" could mean not letting Rona return to the planet, which makes sense as I doubt the Royal family would welcome her back. Or it could reference another action. This may be a bit of a stretch, but it is remains ambivalent. I need to find a way to rewatch. It may mean that if anybody else other than the parties involved (this includes Rona) gets in the way then they are to be killed. That is certainly well within his personal framework. That said, why, if he's essentially telling Braca to kill Rona in the first case (with Braca's knowing reaction) would he have to tell the nurse to tell it to Braca again?? If the first is true, then it's clear Braca gets it. If the first isn't, then why have the second at all? This leans me towards the kill anybody who gets in the way. I understand that this will remain an arguable point, but it's good to clarify the possibilities.

In the case of Grunschlik is egregious. One of those things that just make me shake my head. However, it could be argued that since Grunschlik arranged to betray Scorpius by unsealing the Scarran spy that Scorpius was no longer bound to his contract. It is my thinking that Grunschlik planned to get paid by the PK for delivering John, and then by the Scarrans for delivering Scorpius. Then Grunschlik's actions make some sense, and then so do those of Scorpius, who might also be able to tell that Grunschlik is lying to him about whether or not the Scarran was a safety measure, or simply part of the plan. I think it was after Grunschlik talks about this that we get actual digit crunching and direct mind control. Scorpius' adherence to his contract here is possible, although still, the finger crunching and control thing...well, even at the risk of offending DB again I simply must
<sigh>. ;)

I dislike using Scorpius' ability to read energy signatures here as the basis for some of these arguments, as it can't be seen by the audience and is only occassionally spoken of. However, it is as true to the character's physical makeup as the Scarran's heat ray, and I think is fair to take into account in addressing his actions. Certainly it is a big concern of Harvey's in WISC.

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by SueDonym
"No witnesses left behind" could mean not letting Rona return to the planet, which makes sense as I doubt the Royal family would welcome her back. Or it could reference another action. This may be a bit of a stretch, but it is remains ambivalent. I need to find a way to rewatch. It may mean that if anybody else other than the parties involved (this includes Rona) gets in the way then they are to be killed. That is certainly well within his personal framework. That said, why, if he's essentially telling Braca to kill Rona in the first case (with Braca's knowing reaction) would he have to tell the nurse to tell it to Braca again?? If the first is true, then it's clear Braca gets it. If the first isn't, then why have the second at all? This leans me towards the kill anybody who gets in the way. I understand that this will remain an arguable point, but it's good to clarify the possibilities.

Clarify this...

Coming up with a lame, half baked, grasping at straws attempt to whitewash Scorpy's behavior, YET AGAIN, demonstrates you to be so biased as to be unable to make any useful observations whatsoever. Nobody is going to buy he meant "don't let her return to the planet" or other such bilge. In essence, the whole paragraph is bilge. Oh, well MAYBE he meant it and MAYBE he didn't. Nonsense.

If it were just that, I'd let it lie, but worse, you do so in obvious contradiction of one of Scorpy's ESTABLISHED values. One of his VIRTUES! In truth, not only do I think you've done yourself disservice, I think you've dissed my man Scorp.

My rationale is this..

He meant to violate the contract and have Rona killed. This is a repeat of his behavior with Rygel. And is entirely consistent with his ethics... he wanted Rygel dead to demoinstrate to his crew that he doesn't approve of traitors.

Rona needed to die (though not for the example) for the same reason.... she was a traitor.

I find Scorpy's attitude toward traitors, even those who serve him, to be refreshing. "A treacherous weapon is a danger to the hand" as Gandalf would say. Scorpy is quite wise, and justified, in violating contracts in both cases.

Grunschlik (or however it is spelled) was a lying, theiving, treacherous knave. He had "betrayed" his paying customers already. Scorpy knew that a the first. I think he would have killed him in any case, for the same feelings about treachery. Again, he would have violated a contract for a "virtuous" reason.

This, coincidentally, argues strongly that the situation with Braca was a set up all along, because Scorpy would not be friendly to a traitor after the fact.

[SueDonym]

Well, DB, I will for some reason still try to respond to you with civility.

Since I believe you did me a good turn by offering up some nice explanations on points logic in the John Crichton...good person thread, I would like to return the favor.

It is just as effective to point out flaws in an argument without labling them 'lame', 'half-baked', or other negatives. In fact, if they are so lame then simply stating where the argument falls apart will suffice to make that obvious to all. Although opinions still may vary once the benefit of your wisdom is received and you should expect discussion this does not mean that your own arguments are challenged in some way that offends your core being. Worse, continuing to attack me with such personal vitupritive makes you look bad. You don't need to acquire a reputation for jumping on people, as the questioning of your very clearly enthusiastic statements to Scorpy-Sik on your Scorpius - virtue thread makes good example. Since I used to really enjoy your posts, and don't recall you behaving in this nasty manner, I can only think that whatever I said pushed some buttons for you. I've gone over that post and tried to see what really set you off, as the reaction is pretty extreme balanced against that post and my subsequent ones. I still don't know. It can't just be my stupidity or lack of logic as there are plenty of stupid people in the world who lack logic. Some may even post on this BB, but I wouldn't know. I've tried to be polite to you about this, and will continue to do so. However, if you find yourself continuing to be flung into a froth at the sight of my posts you might want to ask yourself why this is so, and whether or not it is worth it in the long run, or effectively gets your point across...which seems to be that you don't like me. Oh well. In case it helps, I would like to offer my apology for whatever sent you into this loop. It was not my intention to cause you to feel this way, nor is it my desire at any time to engage in useless flames. That wasn't what I was trying to do, and I think my persistent good humor in the face of your attacks proves this.

On with the discussion, what remains of it:

I think Rona is a stretch as far as honoring contracts go, and say so. That said, the reasons for Scorpius having to reiiterate telling Braca to "off her" in so many words are questionable. He's usually more efficient than that, isn't he? And thinks Braca more subtle and reliable if we are to take his use of him as a double agent with Grayza to be an example. No, Scorpius doesn't suffer traitors, and you are very correct in saying that this supports the idea that Braca was in on the plot, one that I always thought obvious.

I agree with you about Grunchlik.

[Mirth]

*Possible Spoilers*

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Harvey 2.0

saying he'll remove the clone, then upgrading it. Aint that a lie?

[Darth Buddha]

More spoilage..






Was Harvey actually upgraded... he couldn't actually communicate with Scorpy.

I think he was just taking the moral high road... John was wrong, not necessarily for personally betraying Scorpius, but becasue his personal issues with Scorpy pale beside the fact that the Scarrens must be stopped.

I believe Harvey said exactly that in La Bomba.

As to my dear SueDonym, I'm just tired of the biased, Scorpy-apologist diatribes... needs clarification was poppycock, I'd like to see you strive for a higher standard. I'm limiting myself to dealing with your arguments... lame, half baked....

You can do better, I suspect. Get over your John vs. Scorpy hurt feelings or resentment or whatever.

[MournsZhaan]

Originally posted by Scaper_S
So, torture as a bi-product. Nice.

but, Scorpy is a liar about not torturing people - see above from Ouroboros.

Please note that you did not quote my suggestion that the writers screwed up.

Far be it from me to defend Scorpius as being scrupulously honest. Scorpius strikes me as obsessed, vindictive and utterly ruthless but not sadistic for sadism's own sake. Consequently, in Scorpy's mind he may strictly speaking view his actions not as torture, only as interrogation.

Having said that, let me make myself perfectly clear: I think Scorpy is scum. I believe that the philosophical position that says "the ends justifies the means" is one of the basest deceptions possible in the hearts and minds of people. Scorpy believes that vile lie and is utterly polluted by it.

Chris

[ScorpSik]

Originally posted by MournsZhaan
let me make myself perfectly clear: I think Scorpy is scum
Chris

How is it that I nearly got thrown off a board for a faaar less nasty/blunt comment like that?

Oh, probably because it was against JC.....
I guess it's OK to say that stuff about S/SS, though?:whip: :ewink:

[SueDonym]

Although I can't speak for Scaper_S. the idea that the writers screwed up, while amusing and possible, I didn't take as something you seriously meant as an explanation of an apparent lie. I mean no insult by this, it's just that if you use the writers screwed up as an explanation for one thing then everything else on the show gets called into question in a way that makes the discussion less teniable.

Of course the writers are just going to mess up now and again, it's a TV show, after all, and they are busy. It's amazing given the complexity and alien nature of the universe established in FarScape that they don't do it more often. That said, part of the fun of these discussions is trying to justify the uneven edges in the cannon. Sometimes you just can't (the finer points of the microbes is always a difficult piece of business). However, if "the writers screwed up" becomes the fallback of every questionable statement, it tends to undermine our ability to discuss the story at all. It could all be a mistake.

It is not, actually, important for me to defend Scopius as scruptuously honest. He's still a very interesting character if he lies. Establishing if he lies, when and where he lies, or if as you say he might not consider something a lie from his perspective, is just another way of approaching the character and examining his deeds. It's interesting.

I am always for a character taking responsibility for his actions. To do any less diminishes both the character and the person posting, as I say in a post to which I direct you later. I have taken the role of devils advocate (although I disagree with you - in my take on the character I find him sympathetic) in this thread in order to demonstrate opposing viewpoints and give further grounds for discussion. Okay, but what if?

I have always thought that Scorpius' torture of John is wrong, wrong, wrong, MournsZhaan. You can see a further discussion of my take on this about a third of the way down my first post on the following page:
http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16369&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

DB:
I hope this goes some way towards showing once again that you're attributing a sentiment to me which I don't possess. I have no John vs Scorpius hurt feelings and in our discussion on Zantar's thread have repeatedly pointed out where this is a false assumption. Again, in my first post I mentioned Scorpius only in connection to how I deal with liking a character whom I feel has done bad things. When I speak of John I never actually compare him to Scorpius. Even later, when the comparison has been made, I try to establish where I think the separation should exist and at no time state that John's ill (what there is of it) in any way excuses wrongdoing by Scorpius. I don't know why people continue to equate their actions as counterbalancing each other. They are very interesting to discuss in tandem, and their actions do affect each other, but one does not excuse the other.

I'm looking forward to seeing you apire to a higher standard too. Perhaps we can make each other better posters. At the very least, I think we can certainly interact cordially on the BB.
:)

[Zantar]

Scorpius to me is a user. As such he can be loyal, and honest, but I could never trust him. Just look at him in Season of Death...kills the diagnosan for the simple reason he no longer serves a purpose. I know his type of person, and sure you can get along with them and they defiently do some good in the world i would never trust him because the microt i was no longer useful iwoudl be expendable and i certainly would NOT want to be in that position when he did.

You guys dont have to agree with me, but thats how i see Scorpius. Certainly not a completely evil person, but not a man id trust in a million years. Far to easy for him to justify his actions for the greater good and all that jazz.

DISCLAIMER: have only seen a little bit of season 4 so i cant speak of the season 4 scorpius at all.

[NebariNookiee]

From Hidden Memory
John didn't show Scorpy everything now did he? So how did Scorpy lie?

and from LGM
Scorpy wasn't attempting to torture him. He was trying to "soften his neural receptors so he could remove the chip. Pain was an “unfortunate” side effect. Remember Scorpy warned him “not to move” or else.

And what seems so funny about this whole argument is the fact that the only reason all this went down was because JOHN WAS ON SCORPY’S GAMMAK BASE WHERE HE SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN!

[Scaper_S]

Originally posted by MournsZhaan


Having said that, let me make myself perfectly clear: I think Scorpy is scum.


I thought we were debating whether or not Scorpy lies? You are however entitled to your opinion, even though it's a bit strong.
Scorpius may lie; he may not. He does have many hidden agenda's and I personally think he is the PERFECT villain for Farscape and lies to cover his many agenda's. I do not think he is scum. I do think he is an evil genius and a far greater manipulator (so far) than Grayza.

(And in support of Sikozu - what purpose does her death serve?)

[SueDonym]

Skorpy-Sik: Although this is not a BB dedicated to a particular character's view (like the Scorpius BB and the various J/A BB's where such a reaction against the chosen character can be expected) viewing the show in a way which contains the perspective that Scorpius is potentially a not as much a villain as he's painted to be, let alone that he could be a "good guy" is generally regarded as a minority opinion. Due to this, and to the strong opinions people hold on the matter, even raising the subject of Scorpius tangentially can be a bit like stirring an ants nest. People general have an opinion about him.

As I don't know what exactly happened to you in that discussion, I can't really speak to it. It wouldn't seem to be a good thing at any rate, but I didn't take offense to the statement that the poster saw Scorpius as evil. Several people have said that here. As long as conversation continues *On* Topic, or they talk about how their view of his honesty affects their negative view of the character then there really isn't much of a problem.

This is why it is helpful when speaking about Scorpius to keep the parameters fairly narrow. To discuss only an aspect of his actions can get people to think about it in a new light and apply that to their broader definition of him. More to the point, it can help short circuit the conversation from becoming a series of statements about whether they like or dislike the character. Liking or disliking the character is a *perfectly* valid topic of discussion. It's just rather broad, and can easily chase the discussion out of discussion.

I'd like to keep this discussion on topic if possible, particularly as Crystal has provided a better area for discussing why one likes or dislikes Scorpius and provided a good framework for it too: does it make him a better villain.

Please note that I think Zantar, Scaper_S where he discusses his opinions, and others are bringing up some nice ideas which I will enjoy discussing elsewhere (or have already discussed in the case of the diagnostician in Zantar's thread, page 4), or watching how others discuss it. I also appreciate Scaper pointing out the OT problem before me. And Zantar, I do feel badly that your thread went OT, although you seemed okay with it at some points.

Good point about the nature of what Scorpius was doing there in LGM, NebariNookie. I have always thought he was trying to be gentle with John there, although he did let Natira tickle John's ivories. But perhaps that is me going OT. ;)

[MournsZhaan]

[Originally posted by Scaper_S
I thought we were debating whether or not Scorpy lies? You are however entitled to your opinion, even though it's a bit strong.
Scorpius may lie; he may not. He does have many hidden agenda's and I personally think he is the PERFECT villain for Farscape and lies to cover his many agenda's. I do not think he is scum. I do think he is an evil genius and a far greater manipulator (so far) than Grayza.

(And in support of Sikozu - what purpose does her death serve?)

And, again, I'm being quoted out of context. The statement follows my comments about how Scorpius may view the veracity of his own statements. I only added that additional information about my opinion of Scorpius to make it clear I wasn't taking Scorpy's side.

And, you also omitted the statement about why I think Scorpy is scum: the key words in the omitted portion of the quote are "deceptions" and "lie".

In summary, I speculated about how Scorpius may view his honesty and added my own comments about what I think of Scorpy's honesty around the quote you cited. Consequently, I didn't view my post as off topic.

Chris

PS And I agree that Scorpy's villainy is part of what makes Farscape so wonderful. I hope you didn't think that I liked Farscape less because of Scorpius. I agree that Scorpius is an evil genius but I also don't think being an evil genius is mutually exclusive with being scum. :ewink:

PPS And, please don't anyone think that I'm trying to shout down those who have a different opinion from myself. I love lively debate. I'm not angry; I'm just trying to express myself clearly! :aok:

[Darth Buddha]

Hey, ScorpSik and SueDonym (good post, no dren, no diatribe, so I gotta give due), I didn't realize that viewing Scorpy as heroic, as being a good guy, or any of that was particularly a minority view around here.

Scorpsik, I surely didn't realize that you got grief for saying that you thought ill of John... surely, I think that is your prerogative (though as I've mentioned to you offline, I think John and Scorpy are the most similar characters on the show... and even have a "fusion" in the form of Harvey to illustrate that point).

Point of fact, if you got grief, I think that is wrong. Wrong Wrong Wrong.

More power to you, dude!

But back to the question of lying or living up to contracts...

I think we are putting too much weight on the mere fact of lying or reneging on a contract. Personally, the some of contracts he reneged on were done so on a virtuous, or even heroic basis, by my standards.

To put it bluntly, I'd have wasted Rygel for selling John out, Rona for selling out her loyalty to the royal family, and Grunchik (sp?) for selling out his customers and generally being a theiving SOB. Leaving them alive was a liability. They were bad folks. In a similar circumstance were I believe I'm fighting for the survival of my species, I'm not gonna sweat betraying them if they compromise my higher purpose.

When I sum that out, I get net positive points for Scorp.

To give you the flip side of that, John would have left them alive as a liability. I'd give net negative points for that.... as with Furlow. Letting her go is like letting nuclear scientists out of the WWII Manhattan project when you KNOW they are going to sell the tech to BAD people. You have to stop that... BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY. Scorpy would NEVER have made that mistake.

Scorpy's information isn't perfect (I'll resort to Harvey as arbiter to say that where Harvey agrees with John, Scorp probably would too, given the full information (since the clone already has almost all Scorp's info)), but he does make the right utilitarian choice given what he's got on the big picture level.

The apparent intent to waste Natira, as confimred by the alter-Scorpy, the pre-Harvey neural clone, is a little more troublesome.

I'm not sure there is a contract he violated there, though.

My bottom line is, though, yeah, he lies at time. But WHY is so important!

[SueDonym]

The reason its important when discussing Scorpius to determine if he is routinely a liar is that if someone’s basic premise is that the character fundamentally lies, then it’s possible to say anything about him and feel justified.

Like my earlier post about the problem of saying something is just a “writers mistake”, the actions of Scorpius as a character are too easily twisted and invalidated. Well, you know the character is a liar so he must just be fooling them there, or have some sort of deep deep agenda which will prove this all to be a lie. This is particularly true about his kindness. “Well, he just saved Aeryn because he’s planning to use her later.” Or on any one of a number of occasions, “It’s all just part of some scheme we don’t know about yet.” This doesn’t mean that Scorpius isn’t a deep planner. But being a deep planner isn’t a bad thing. The thing that seems to make people so squeamish about the character is the idea that he is a deep planner who is fundamentally false

It’s impossible or at least very difficult to engage in debate with or about a character or person who is fundamentally an “ill-intentioned liar”, as that very idea violates the tenets of the discussion (to my way of thinking). If everything about them is a lie or violating the contract of general trust, then why talk at all? This is why people across cultures have such contempt for liars and people who violate contracts. This is why a person’s worth is often said to be based on his (or her) word. Maybe even on a subconscious level, it can mean that since the person has removed himself from the social contract you are under no obligation to treat them humanely.

Saying that Scorpius is a liar goes a lot deeper than just the idea that he would play a character on the series false. It affects how people treat the character in discussion, and I think accounts for some of the raw hatred many seem to feel for the character.

[Trickster figures are different from this. They are only selectively false, and that is usually for a ‘good’ or amusing reason, or to play their enemy who is usually depicted as having such an advantage that often the character’s only choice is to lie. People like trickster figures generally from the get-go because they have a common man, little guy winning out touch, and evoke sympathetic feelings. ]

Saying that Scorpius is fundamentally a liar invalidates discussion, and I think it worth trying to repudiate.

Edited to include:
Two minor points:
1. I'm assuming you're being ironic when you say that you never thought being a pro-Scorpy person was a minority opinion and not a highly regarded one at that. Look at the way people talk about him on the board. If they find themselves having to say, or even wanting to say things that could be interpreted as "good" they are usually very careful to say "I'm not a Scorpy apologist or anything" or "I hate the guy but..." I myself try to be careful when bringing him up just so that I feel I can be assured of actual conversation, rather than the aforementioned knee-jerk like or (more likely) dislike statements. He evokes *very* strong reactions. Which just says that he's a powerful character, I suppose.
2.To the best of my knowledge, DarthBuddha, Scorpy-Sik, like myself, is female. So that would be "dudette".

(NO more posting, SUE! Back to work!!! <darn>)

[ScorpSik]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha

Scorpsik, I surely didn't realize that you got grief for saying that you thought ill of John... surely, I think that is your prerogative (though as I've mentioned to you offline, I think John and Scorpy are the most similar characters on the show... and even have a "fusion" in the form of Harvey to illustrate that point).

Point of fact, if you got grief, I think that is wrong. Wrong Wrong Wrong.



Yeah...thanks DB.....Unfortunately, things like that tend to instill a certain...paranoia:D

It appears certain sections of fans go to the mods to tell non-shippy peeps off, whilst S/SS bashing is totally acceptable.

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the pariah party:whip:

[Darth Buddha]

Not ironic, actually, when I said I didn't realize it could get you nearly thrown off.

ScorpSik, next time you get beat on, you be sure to PM me... because I want to chime in THEN AND THERE how wrong I think that is, too (can I become a member of the pariah party, too?).

But I myself note that I am not a Scorpy apologist (A Scorpologist?) because there are those who try to sanitize the boy into something he isn't (yet). I don't want to be seen as a one issue, one sided type who is pro-Scorpy even at the expense of things that ARE clear when I point out the angles from which he is very ethical. There are those who do the same with the PK's. I find that tedious in the extreme, but it always seems to go that way. My side, your side.

(Actually, a thread that was committed to being NEITHER PK apologist NOR PK thrashing would be kinda cool.. how are they bad news, how are they good... trying to sort out the evidence we have in an unvarnished way... because, like stuff with Scorpy, it isn't all one way or the other.)

Just as I find trying to completely sanitize John rather annoying as well.... because, as I've pointed out with the abandoning Scorpy part... it was wrong on the global level because it potentially gave too much advantage to the Scarrens. And THAT is just wrong.

Exploiting unrealized realities just to get Aeryn back... that's pretty shaky ground too. I can't point out exactly why it is so dangerous, but I don't think Einstein would approve, nor Jack, and I think they are the experts on that sort of nonsense. On the other hand, even in that questionably ethical act, there is the virtue of his unwavering loyalty to Aeryn.

But what peeves me the most is that if you sanitize or villify totally, either John or Scorpy, and there seem to be lots of folks who are really 100% on one side or the other, the characters aren't interesting at all anymore, as far as I am concerned.

Scorpy is fascinating BECAUSE he is good in evil. John is fascinating because there is evil in his good. They are BOTH struggling to do better, despite the enormous level of responsibility that they find themselves operationg on, it would seem to me. Scorpy is maybe a little too ready to accept choosing the lesser of two evils as "good" and too willing to rationalize anything in the name of utility on the big picture level. John gets too caught up in interpersonal ethics and misses the importance of the big picture sometimes.

Finally, if Scorpy helped Aeryn only for the edge, then is that necesarily evil? Is that lying? Nope on both counts. What if he was trying to earn an ally? Then that's looking for an edge, still, but now it is really kind of virtuous too.

He doesn't have to do it just for wholly selfless reasons. Or for selfless reasons at all. Besides, the only time you have selfless for sure is when you see self interest go one way, and the persons actions go the other.

[PauNthWorlds]

I just love all the characters, if their evil, good, neutral so what!!!

I love them all!!!

[millahnna]

I think its really funny that this discussion is this chaotic. A sign of the greatness of the show. I think of Scorpy as a Lawful Evil .... although I could see some arguements for Neutral instead. Whatever, you all rock.

[NeuralClone]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
My rationale is this..

He meant to violate the contract and have Rona killed. This is a repeat of his behavior with Rygel. And is entirely consistent with his ethics... he wanted Rygel dead to demoinstrate to his crew that he doesn't approve of traitors.

Rona needed to die (though not for the example) for the same reason.... she was a traitor.

I find Scorpy's attitude toward traitors, even those who serve him, to be refreshing. "A treacherous weapon is a danger to the hand" as Gandalf would say. Scorpy is quite wise, and justified, in violating contracts in both cases.

Grunschlik (or however it is spelled) was a lying, theiving, treacherous knave. He had "betrayed" his paying customers already. Scorpy knew that a the first. I think he would have killed him in any case, for the same feelings about treachery. Again, he would have violated a contract for a "virtuous" reason.

This, coincidentally, argues strongly that the situation with Braca was a set up all along, because Scorpy would not be friendly to a traitor after the fact.

Thank you for expressing this so eloquently, DB! I've thought this for a long time, but I haven't been able to put it into words quite so well. Scorpius does not like treachery.

Supporting this, indirectly, is Lt. Larrell's remark to Crais - "He values loyalty highly". And - can I quote "cut" scenes here? - in the last Farscape DVD there is an edited scene where he praises Braca for being his loyal friend (my emphasis).

So on Scorpius's scale of values, he rates "loyalty" highly, followed, I think, by the keeping of oaths and bargains (dealing wth traitors cancels the latter out) and down the bottom, I think, would be qualities of mercy or compassion. Yes, he has shown both at times, but in general I think he regards acting "with hesitation" to be ... messy.

The apparent intent to waste Natira, as confimred by the alter-Scorpy, the pre-Harvey neural clone, is a little more troublesome.

Um... have people forgotten that Natira tried to killed Scorpius?

[NeuralClone]

Originally posted by SueDonym
The reason its important when discussing Scorpius to determine if he is routinely a liar is that if someone’s basic premise is that the character fundamentally lies, then it’s possible to say anything about him and feel justified.

Like my earlier post about the problem of saying something is just a “writers mistake”, the actions of Scorpius as a character are too easily twisted and invalidated. Well, you know the character is a liar so he must just be fooling them there, or have some sort of deep deep agenda which will prove this all to be a lie. This is particularly true about his kindness. “Well, he just saved Aeryn because he’s planning to use her later.” Or on any one of a number of occasions, “It’s all just part of some scheme we don’t know about yet.” This doesn’t mean that Scorpius isn’t a deep planner. But being a deep planner isn’t a bad thing. The thing that seems to make people so squeamish about the character is the idea that he is a deep planner who is fundamentally false

Um, yes. And it makes discussions about the character a bit circular, because no matter what a pro-Scorpius fan says in favour of the character, the anti-Scorpius fan negates it. And pro- or anti-, it tends to flatten out the character, because it washes out the "good" and leaves him two-dimensionally Evil.

Just out of curiosity - and getting slightly off-topic - why do you think that the fans never had this problem with Crais even though Crais was a proven liar (from the time he disregarded and covered up his orders in TOBM, to his death in ITLD2?)

[Darth Buddha]

Yeah... but was he aware of that... (I don't remember)...

If so, then I guess that his intents toward her fit the pattern too.

[waltersgirl]

the fans do have that problem with Crais...and with John...and with Chiana.....etc

[Darth Buddha]

Well, events are always too complicated to consider EVERYTHING, so it is the nature of people to "pound things flat so they can get their minds around them"... logic only applies AFTER you decicde what is important.

Unfortunately, most of the time, the axes that people focus on is driven by them, not the event in question.

In the event of John, Chiana, Aeryn, and even Crais, I think it is comfort level... good vs. evil is a lot more comfortable than the complicted truth.

[Judith]

Originally posted by NeuralClone


Just out of curiosity - and getting slightly off-topic - why do you think that the fans never had this problem with Crais even though Crais was a proven liar (from the time he disregarded and covered up his orders in TOBM, to his death in ITLD2?)

I was wondering that, because I tend to be more sympathetic towards Crais than Scorpy. And I had to analyze that. And I think that while Crais does just as many things that are problematic than Scorpy, he is given more unambiguously "good" moments. Where as with Scorpy, sometimes even when he makes the "right" decisions (I hate to be one of those people who uses quotes too much, but these seem like highly subjective terms) you really have to analyze some of his actions to recognize the good in them. So we might feel more sympathetic towards Crais because we have a better gut reaction to him, while with Scorpy, we really have to think things through before we can sympathize with him. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how it works for me. The more I rewatch episodes, the more I feel sympathetic towards Scorpius. Crais' good actions are often obvious on the first viewing.

[Darth Buddha]

Truthfully, I viewed Crais with more suspicion than Scorpy right up until the final sacrifice.

There's no way THAT could have been some sort of scheme on his part.

[waltersgirl]

good vs. evil is a lot more comfortable than the complicted truth.

Farscape is all about the complicated truth. to reduce it to a simple "who's good and who's evil" is to miss its point entirely.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Truthfully, I viewed Crais with more suspicion than Scorpy right up until the final sacrifice.

There's no way THAT could have been some sort of scheme on his part.

Maybe it was like...the worst scheme ever.

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by waltersgirl
Farscape is all about the complicated truth. to reduce it to a simple "who's good and who's evil" is to miss its point entirely.

When we agree, we really agree.

[NeuralClone]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Yeah... but was he aware of that... (I don't remember)...

If so, then I guess that his intents toward her fit the pattern too.

Yes, I seem to recall him catching her out, and her telling him that, "If I hadn't tried to kill you, you wouldn't have respected me".

[NeuralClone]

It strikes me that Scorpy's values are very much the values of a feudal or even tribal society. Treason and disloyalty are THE major crimes in a society based around personal alliegences, because if you pull one down then the whole thing comes crashing around you.

Likewise revenge is valued in a tribal societies - just think of payback in Papua New Guinea, or inter-tribal feuds in Albania or the middle east - as a matter of honour and group cohesion.

Just a thought - in "Incubator" we're told that Scorpius was told a Sebacean had raped his Scarran mother, in order to make him a loyal Scarran. Could it be they were trying to make him want to avenge himself on the Sebaceans? Likewise, the Scarrans have some kind of monarchy, which appears to depend on natural ability and ruthlessness as well as personal loyalty and heredity.

I wonder - could it be, while you can take the hybrid out of the Scarran Empire, you can't take the Scarran Empire out of the hybrid? :smokin:

[Darth Buddha]

I buy the treason/loyalty ethic as you describe (I think I've been hinting around it myself), but there's a hitch on the revenge ethic...

He should expect Crichton to want revenge on him. But he does not.

Unless the revenge part is indeed his Scarren part... which he TRIES to keep submerged.

[millahnna]

What about removing the nearual clone in season 4? Did Scorp say he removed Harvery or did he let John believe he had with a subtle lie of omittance? At the beginning of season 4 I speculated on this very topic....Scorpy is like lawful evil or something (my D&D roots showing yet?). He definitely has a sense of honour in his own unique way.