Grayza

[mjwillia]

Again - Wow, I never thought of watching a season from one character's point of view before... I bet all the things I didn't like about Season 4 would make sense if I watched it from each character's point of view. Hum, good home work for the coming winter!

Your insights are execellent! Thank you1

[mjwillia]

Nicola - I'd like your insights on three questions that have always bothered me about Season 4 (if you don't mind sharing your thoughts that is):

1. I can't remember which episode in Season 4 (and, I don't have time to go look it up on my DVDs) but, after shortly Ayern was found aboard Moya with Scorpius in tow either she or John had flashbacks/halluciations of Scorpius finding Ayern unconcious aboard a Prowler or some other ship. Scorpius saves her and it appears that he puts a chip in her head like John's chip. Did he? If so, why didn't he use it to control her like he did Grunschlik?

2. In the same episode (I think) John lets Scorpius stick something in his head again to relieve pain I think... Why would John do that? Seems to me that is the last thing John would let him do to him...

3. What was Ayern's story arc? She seemed more like a character on Desprite Housewives than like Ayern Sun... I can't figure out what the writers were trying to do with her...

[Nicola]

I am always happy to talk about my favourite show! Can't you tell? Here I am - years after the last new episode aired - still mulling over favourite plot points and ideas. So yeah. I would be happy to share what I think (although I am not promising anything earth shaking. ).

1. As far as we know, Scorpy did NOT put a neural chip into Aeryn's brain. That was just John's nightmare throughout the first half of Season 4 and one of his excuses (the one he rationalised to himself at any rate) for him to keep arms length distance between himself and Aeryn.

That being said, Aeryn and Scorpy did have something going on between them. Aeryn made John promise not to kill Scorpy and she followed that up in Natural Election by telling Scorpy that she trusted him. Since there was no-one else around to hear the two of them, I think she really did trust him. Which leads me to think that there is something else going on... (It could be as simple as Aeryn's agreeing with Scorpy that the Scarrans pose a terrible threat to the rest of the galaxy.... or not.)

2. John let(!) Scorpy stick another neural probe (!) into his brain(!) under the illusion that Scorpy was removing Harvey. (As it turns out he wasn't removing Harvey he was installing an upgrade. Which anyone with a grain of sense would have known!) It is a good thing John is cute, 'cause he does the stupidest things sometimes. *shakes head*

3. Aeryn.... Because of her Pilot DNA, Aeryn can see wormholes before they appear. Not even John can do that. She never really gave any indication of that particular ability in Season 3, so I tend to think that she began to see them before she returned in Season 4.

Add to that the fact that John had been raped - which no one actually told her about - and he was behaving extremely strangely towards her. It wouldn't occur to her what the problem was, because I don't think that rape is a concept that PKs recognise. So she is completely at a loss.

She was pregnant. Which in itself is a huge deal. And her background does not prepare her in anyway for the motherhood thing and this is another thing she has no idea how to handle. (I bet she has never even conceived of a baby bootie. )

Aeryn's emotions were in flux. She didn't know what was going on with John (and then she found out about the laka she was some pissed), she didn't know how to handle the baby thing, she was grappling with the whole wormhole thing, and she was trying to repair her relationship with John. Which she seemed to make worse everytime she confided in anyone (letting Chiana know that she wasn't sure who the father was for instance).

Nothing in her background prepared her for dealing with any of these things.

Watching Aeryn in the episode "Twice Shy" (when her PK reserve was stripped from her by Talikka the spiderwoman) we see that Aeryn is actually a seething mass of emotion underneath her control. Her emotions were always roiling under the surface and when her normal way of dealing with problems (shoot it!) failed her she didn't have other way of handling things.

Aeryn's arc was (I think anyway) meant to come to the forefront in Season 5 - when things would be dealt with. The end of Season 4 saw John and Aeryn resolve their differences (mostly) and PK Wars saw Aeryn coming to terms with motherhood. But.... it didn't delve into Aeryn's wormhole abilities and it didn't deal with what was going one between Aeryn and Scorpy and it didn't deal with what Aeryn had been up to while she was off being an assassin. Frustrating.

[mjwillia]

Thanks Nicola!

At least I'm not the only one who thought it was insane that John let Scorpy stick something in his head again!

Aeryn's character is still sort of strange to me... There's a point in Season 4 when Aeryn is being tortured by the Scarrens. They want her to reveal who the father of her baby is... She says something like "I've been with so many guys there could be 4 fetuses in me..." This line always bugged me: By saying that she is really saying that the "suspended baby thing" is what Peace Keepers normally use as birthcontrol. If that's the case, then it would be normal for PK women to "be pregnant" a lot of the time and still perform their duties... Hence, it wouldn't "freak a PK woman out" to be pregnant. She would know the fetus was suspended and she would know she would have several cycles to figure out what to do with it... And, she would have know other PK women who fought right next to her side who were pregnant too... The fact that this baby was John's and she loved John would set her apart from the "regular PK pregnant woman" I suppose...

I can see that a lot of her actions were that she was trying to play the "relationship/love game" on "human rules" and I can see why that pissed her off when she found out that John was cheating by using the laka juice...

I wonder what she and Scorpy had going on between them?

[Lord Loser]

Yeah mj, you shouldn't listen to Nic... as you can see, she obviously doesn't know what she's talking about.

[mjwillia]

No - I'm quite impressed with Nicola's interpetations. Her interpetations explain a lot of the inconsistancies that bugged me about Season 4. I appreciate that!

I hope/wish the webseries will help clarify what would have happened in Season 4...

[Nicola]

Originally Posted by Lord Loser

Yeah mj, you shouldn't listen to Nic... as you can see, she obviously doesn't know what she's talking about.

Originally Posted by mjwillia

No - I'm quite impressed with Nicola's interpetations. Her interpetations explain a lot of the inconsistancies that bugged me about Season 4. I appreciate that!

Thanks. These are questions that bothered me also - but rewatching the series from another characters perspective (rather than my default character) does wonders for my understanding of what the heck is going on.

What is so frustrating is that Season 4 really is only half the story - and none of the character arcs that were begun in Season 4 were resolved in PK Wars. (OK - D'argo's. But I still feel that D'Argo's character arc has some major reveals left in it. Damn it.) Not even John and Aeryn's lurve story. Which I do enjoy - but both John and Aeryn are more than just their reflection in the other and I really wanted to see that explored.

The reason why most TV relationship stories fail when they put the two romantic characters together is because the characters are defined by the other half. Once that tension is removed they are no longer interesting. Farscape avoided that pitfall by making both John and Aeryn complete characters from the begining - with their own history, their own hangups and their own conflicts independant of each other. Which is why they could put those two together without losing the interest of the audience.

Originally Posted by mjwillia

I hope/wish the webseries will help clarify what would have happened in Season 4...

I don't think the webisodes are going to be long enough to answer the questions we want them too. If we are lucky = 60 minutes total. *sigh*

I think (myself) the webisodes are going to be more of an independant taste test (if you know what I mean). With some of the characters we love, but a story that may, or may not, have anything to do with the storylines/characters arcs that were established in the series.

Still Rockne did say one thing: The webisodes will be "Farscape". So.... I am optimistic and intrigued. But not putting all my expectations into them. 'Cause there is no way the webisodes could fulfill them.

[Lord Loser]

Originally Posted by Nicola

[DannyGrazer]

[quote=mjwillia;792692]Nicola - I'd like your insights on three questions that have always bothered me about Season 4 (if you don't mind sharing your thoughts that is):

1. I can't remember which episode in Season 4 (and, I don't have time to go look it up on my DVDs) but, after shortly Ayern was found aboard Moya with Scorpius in tow either she or John had flashbacks/halluciations of Scorpius finding Ayern unconcious aboard a Prowler or some other ship. Scorpius saves her and it appears that he puts a chip in her head like John's chip. Did he? If so, why didn't he use it to control her like he did Grunschlik?

2. In the same episode (I think) John lets Scorpius stick something in his head again to relieve pain I think... Why would John do that? Seems to me that is the last thing John would let him do to him...


I can answer that for you , and say that No , your number two question is not the same episode as your number 1 point. In your number 2, question you are referring to " Won't get fooled again ". John did not know that Scorpius had put a chip in his head, until that episode, and Scorpius TOLD John that he put the chip in his head. " Won't get fooled again " is one of my favourite episodes ( in season two . ) I love that scene and the one later we see about Crais shows up with his little pooch ( named Toto ) and gives John a bill for beating him up earlier.
Your questions in Pointer number 1 is referring to another episode that Aeryn was sick with the Peacekeeper's disease about getting overly hot. They hate the heat as this would cause them a death. So Scorpius ( all knowing about this disease as he is partly like Aeryn ) thought to care for her and have her in a suit like his to keep her cool .
I hope this is helpful to you .
Sincerely,
Danny Grazer

[DannyGrazer]

Originally Posted by mjwillia

Be careful not to be too "punitive" with DannyGrazer here: Yes, from the first time I saw the scene where Graza rapes John, I saw it as a rape. My husband (who is a PHD Psychologist) saw that scene as so subtlety written that from a man's point view it could easily be seen as "aggresive sexual suduction" tieing in with all sort of sexual fantasies ie) Dominatrix fantasy.

I have to admit - if I put myself in a man's shoes, I could see where that scene could be viewed as a Dominatrix fantasy.

Also, don't forget - I saw the John rape scene as a rape scene but completely and totally missed Chiana's rape...6 times I missed that!

I bet both John's and Chiana's rapes were written subtlely to avoid "turning off" the general viewing public.

Be careful not to be too punitive to anyone of us who "missed judging a rape scene as a rape scene." It was written in such a way that it could easily be missed in my opinion.

I don't know what to say here, Perhaps a " thank you " is in order ? I mean, I see that people DON'T see that Grayza was an alien with her own uses to get her way. So thank you for saying not to be so " punitive " with me. ( I have to look up that word, " Punitive " . I am guessing here, but does it mean to " punish " me , for my words ? )But I wanted to also say that I am , like you . I missed that whole thing about Chiana being raped . When did THAT happen ? Are you referring to that part in " Crackers don't matter " . John in his suddenly crazier than before ways, slammed Chiana up against the wall and ( then there was that " John sandwich " with Chiana on the wall, followed by John , followed by Scorpius telling John to spare Chiana and not to waist her all at once. ) Or otherwise, I do not know when. If you could fill me in on the details, so I will know what to look forward to the next time I come around to seeing that episode.
Sincerely,
Danny Grazer

[Nicola]

Originally Posted by DannyGrazer

I can answer that for you , and say that No , your number two question is not the same episode as your number 1 point. In your number 2, question you are referring to " Won't get fooled again ". John did not know that Scorpius had put a chip in his head, until that episode, and Scorpius TOLD John that he put the chip in his head. " Won't get fooled again " is one of my favourite episodes ( in season two . ) I love that scene and the one later we see about Crais shows up with his little pooch ( named Toto ) and gives John a bill for beating him up earlier.

Actually Danny Grazer, Mjwillia is not talking about Season Two's "Won't Get Fooled Again".

The episode that Mjwillia is talking about is Season Four's "Promises" - when Aeryn returns to Moya and John worries that Scorpy has done the same thing to her that he did to him, and when John allows Scorpy and Sikozu to stick a neural probe into his brain to kill Harvey.

Both scenes happened in "Promises".

But you are correct in that Scorpy Clone (not Harvey) did appear to John in "Won't Get Fooled Again" and told him that he had been implanted to find the wormhole knowledge and intended to stay to protect John.

And then he erased John's memory of Scorpy Clone so John would do anything about him until it was too late.

Originally Posted by DannyGrazer

[Your questions in Pointer number 1 is referring to another episode that Aeryn was sick with the Peacekeeper's disease about getting overly hot. They hate the heat as this would cause them a death. So Scorpius ( all knowing about this disease as he is partly like Aeryn ) thought to care for her and have her in a suit like his to keep her cool .
I hope this is helpful to you .
Sincerely,
Danny Grazer

It is called Sebecean Heat Delerium and was introduced as a concept early in Season One (Exodus from Genesis). Aeryn catches a genetically engineered virus version when she was involved with the assassination of the Prime Hokothian. The only cure is in the hands of Ullom - and he wants Aeryn to tell him who hired her to commit the assassination. Aeryn won't cooperate so John, D'Argo and Aeryn pull a fast one to fool Ullom.

In the meantime, Scorpy convinces John that he can help him remove Harvey (whose presence has always annoyed John) by having Sikozu hold John down while he stabs John in the back of the neck (!) with another neural probe. "Harvey: Scorpius - he upgraded me to - Harvey 2.0. One of my many improvements - utter loyalty to Scorpius." (Not an improvement in my opinion - but then what did John expect? *exasperated*)

That scene (by the way) is re-enacted in PK Wars with a slight shifting of the players. John, Aeryn and Sikozu hold down Stark and force him to absorb the knowledge of the Eidelons into his brain.

Another example of how John's actions/beliefs slowly come around to Scorpy's. Brothers on two sides of an imaginary line.

[Nicola]

Originally Posted by DannyGrazer

I mean, I see that people DON'T see that Grayza was an alien with her own uses to get her way.

I'm a Social/Cultural Anthropologist DG, I do understand about ethnocentrism and how judging another culture by the standards of your own is wrong.

However, just as I do not accept sexual abuse of children under 14 is acceptable (no matter how tolerant the culture is about it) or the use of female genital mutilation is acceptable - so I do not accept that rape is acceptable in any way, under any circumstances.

I draw the line there.

John was raped. I get that many people have problems with the idea that a man could be raped - but that is a cultural failing. It doesn't change the act nor the reprecussions.

Ben Browder was asked at the 2006 Farscape Burbank convention if John ever got over Grayza's rape. His response was no. John never did. The reprecussions of that rape resonated throughout season 4 and into PK Wars.

Originally Posted by DannyGrazer

I missed that whole thing about Chiana being raped . When did THAT happen ? Are you referring to that part in " Crackers don't matter " . John in his suddenly crazier than before ways, slammed Chiana up against the wall and ( then there was that " John sandwich " with Chiana on the wall, followed by John , followed by Scorpius telling John to spare Chiana and not to waist her all at once. ) Or otherwise, I do not know when. If you could fill me in on the details, so I will know what to look forward to the next time I come around to seeing that episode.
Sincerely,
Danny Grazer

Chiana was raped in the hiatus between Season 3 and 4. Chiana is not one to talk about her ordeals, but in "Crichton Kicks" when she and John are finally alone for the first time, John graps her, pushes her up against a bulkhead and demands that she explain what is going on with her. If you watch that scene you will notice that Chiana is pretty much crawling out of her skin. She cannot bear to be touched - even by someone she loves and trusts as much as she loves and trusts John.

Chiana: There's a- there's a cheat-proof game at the-the casinos. A uh - a mercury droplet - i-it bounces off an ion stream - and there's a thousand different outcomes.

John: (softly) You won.

Chiana: (thoroughly wretched) 7 times - in a row. They arrested me. They took my winnings. They... (her voice drops a tone as she says with despair) They had a little fun and then a little torture... (her voice trails off) Noth-nothin' new...

Poor Chi. She had been raped before. *hugs Chi*

Chiana will never talk about her rape. That was the most she would ever say about it. But if you watch her actions from the beginning of the Season to the end, Chiana's arc is all about her reclaiming ownership of her body and trying again to learn to trust.

Plus Chiana equates her rape with use of her powers - and everytime she uses her powers (and ends up blind) she is forcibly made to relive the rape in her mind. Since she was blind when she was raped.

There is a lot of information transferred in that scene. Chiana's rape, the evolution of Chiana's powers, and hints that Chiana's powers are related to wormholes. Which we don't find out about until 10 episodes later in "Unrealised Realities". A long time to plant a hint...

I really like Chiana's arc in Season 4. Better even than John's because - I think - it is more important and more subtly written.

[DannyGrazer]

Thanks , Nicola . Thanx for setting me straight on both accounts. It is so very nice to have someone who has been there more ( longer ) than me and can explain something so clearly . I appreciate that,very much.
Now I can go back and have a second look at the Chiana thing and I will understand it better. Chiana is one of my favourite characters.
And for the Sebacean Heat Dilerium , I sort of knew the name. It was just at the back of my head. So far back, I can't retrieve it fast enough. So my thanx to you for that explanation on that point as well .
I , also like that you pointed out about the PK Wars relation to the other episode . What was the name of that ep ?

sincerely,
Danny Grazer

[Afarscapefan]

I thought Grayza was Sebacean implanted with a gland. The gland's purpose was to increase her sexual power. One side effect was to lose her longevity. Perhaps it was a Nebari gland. Perhaps another side effect was the Nebari grey/pale skin. Perhaps the Nebari gland acted like a neural chip. Perhaps shelton has exposed another sneaky Nebari plot to seize control over the universe. Good observation shelton no perhaps about that!!!